My question is this in order that this doesn't happen again what type of transformer would you recommend? Plan on using the KW's for the big layout and 1033's like I did before. Sell Your Trains Yourself At Train Shows. Regardless of your scale, all model railroad switch machines fall into one of two categories, a slow-motion electric motor or a "twin coil" relay. The smaller of the two is #12028, which turns your oval into this: There is also the larger 12031 plan, which has a couple extra straight track pieces included, creating this: Even better, one or more of the expansion sets can be combined to create even more interesting track layouts. The transformer included with your starter set should be adequate to handle a modest expansion of your train set discussed above. I cant see you needing more than a capacity of 5 amps. Lionels HO Gauge items are back! Here are a few: --The Lionel Fastrack Book, by Robert Schleicher. The typ miniature incandecents we use average about 100 ma of current each. At fifteen volts which is about as much as I can put to it without jumping the track, it pulls an average of 2.5 amps, or 37.5 watts--less than one tenth of the transformer capacity of 400. Its a bargain at that price. If you have time, check out the "Coffee Pot". If you have to ask,your needs are a lot more modest than that. I thought you wanted information related to your layout not operations at a trains show. Take the hint. Classic cars have a 5 or 6 as their second digit [25051, 16686, etc]. Good choices are the Lionel 32923 Accessory Transformer, or another 80-watt transformer like the one included in your set, #14198. That it not to say that there are not engineering formulae to calculate the current draw and thus the wattage, but far and away the easiest method is to measure it. If you are using only LEDs for lighting, you could get away with even less. They are known as HO train sets because they are half the size of O-guage. Atlas and Bachmann have the same transformers with 80 watt outputs as well that get good reviews and would be appropriate for a smaller layout. Many load and unload freight from specially designed cars as well. I am assuming that your starter set came with either o27, brown ties, or 031, black ties, track and it runs well as is. They are reasonably durable and were popular in their day, which means there are still a lot of them floating around so they tend to be inexpensive. To determine the required transformer VA, multiply the secondary voltage by the required amperes: For example, VA=Volts x Amperes or 28V x 1.2 amperes = 33.6 VA. To determine the maximum transformer current, divide the transformer VA by transformer secondary voltage. The motor takes electricity through a small wire attached to a metal wheel that rests on the middle rail underneath. There are also numerous static accessories that do not operate but add visual interest to your layout, such as the #24219 girder bridge. 4.1 4.1 out of 5 stars (15) Ages: 14 years and up. Electric Trains make great power supplies, depending on usage, on a DCS controlled layout. This will solve the slowdown problem. Transformers are sized by determining the total load required (in amps). If youre looking for Lionel transformer comparisons, youve come to the right place. A solid and stranded wire of the same gauge will be the same total diameter. From 25 Watts to 275 Watts, a Lionel transformer could be found for every power requirment from simple circles of track to extensive railroads. I think the RW is a bit better value, but that could just be timing. For a passenger train with lighted cars, getting a little more power isnt a bad idea. When they were manufactured by The American Flyer Manufacturing Company, they were made in Standard Gauge and a version of "O" gauge. In either case, however, voltage and amperage draw is low and peak for only brief periods. The same is true for other electronic projects around your layout and inside buildings, train cars, and even locomotives. I'm sure I'll need more help along the way, so I'll be checking back in with more silly questions! Actually it was a train show with varied trains of all different eras being run I have mostly MTH trains though and they wouldn't run because the transformer that was running wasn't powerful enough to cycle through my MTH trainsounds. I talk more in depth about the 1033 here. This has the added advantage that Lionel TMCC (command control) will operate correctly. converting a 2-rail freight car to 2-rail with Atlas trucks, My Triple Level Layout -FREEBIE UPDATE- 3/2/23, Successful Open House Upstate (NY) Model Railroaders, FS: Lionel MPC and modern traditional size rolling stock. Some of the variables are obvious, others not so much. But a 12-gauge solid wire is one strand, while a 12-gauge stranded wire may be made up of more than a dozen much smaller individual strands spun together. All Lionel transformer comparisons should start here. The transformer, when operated at the lower frequency, may . However, in the future if you continue in the hobby and your roster expands you may acquire motive power which requires larger curves than what came with your set. Viola, DCS on alternate power blocks, Max signal, Happiness. When running a mixed bag train show with new and old trains of mixed types such as Loinel and MTH which is better? DCC is less common in starter sets, but some are available. Atlas and Bachmann have the same transformers with 80 watt outputs as well that get good reviews and would be appropriate for a smaller layout. Past,presentand future. Lots of good information for building any size O Gauge layout. Right now I am running 8 motors on one KW [the new one I found] and got the old one for reserve. For Lionel power the 45 watts is good for a 4 by 8 as a rule of thumb to compensate poor track you just use more feeders. You can also minimize voltage drop at the rail joints by soldering the rails together. * NOTE: We do not recommend loading a transformer above 80% of its KVA rating. This means that they are not exact 1:48 replicas of the real thing but instead are selectively compressed to negotiate the tight turns of regular Lionel track. With two switches, you can create an alternative route for your trains. Price Received. The higher powered units would not meet todays safety standards as issued by Underwriters Laboratories. Not wanting to give up, I experimented with an 80 watt modern Lionel transformer and got great results. Turn on the throttle, then short the A and U posts (in the case of Lionel) or variable and base posts (in the case of Flyer) with a screwdriver or a piece of wire for a maximum of five seconds. The old transformer is not really the problem, the problem is the supply wire, particularly under heavyload (or derailment without the benefit of a quicker breaker). The house's current is reduced to the required low voltage by Trainmaster Transformers. It states: 1.25 amps for each motor, 0.2 amps for each bulb. View More! Do not operate the CW-80 Transformer with a damaged cord, plug, or case. I'm not sure I completely understand your question. All Lionel transformer comparisons should start here. I justhave a very basic 027 set (guessin' mid 80's?). This set also includes an uncoupling track section, which will disconnect cars from one another at the touch of a button, and a bumper, which keeps cars from rolling off the end of the track. Expanding the basic oval from the set is the quickest way to add more interest to your trains. Lionel and other train manufacturers have worked hard to make adding to a set easy, affordable, and fun. (8 lights X 20 watts = 160 watts). Most power supplies will perform very well for years if used within their limits. I have a 3amp, 40watt transformer. For Lionel power the 45 watts is good for a 4 by 8 as a rule of thumb to compensate poor track you just use more feeders. I'll take this information and run with it to help get me started. UpBright 18V AC/DC Adapter Compatible with Lionel O Gauge Fastrack 10" Remote Control Terminal Straight LionChief System Track 6-1923100 HKYF45-180230T-US DC18V 2300mA 18VDC Power Supply Cord Charger. If youre comfortable doing some work yourself, you can buy a fixer-upper, and my informational links will tell you more about fixing one yourself. The chances are that little power supply isn't going to keep the train running over a full mile, however. And that means theyre affordable. Apparently there is a difference between old conventional and new conventional power. Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month, WELCOME TO THE FORUM Mike!! Also, you wont be able to take advantage of independent control of multiple engines on the same track without a digital controller. That transformer will only prolly handle 1 engine and depending on how long it is will depend on how many extra feeders you will need around the layout. Stop it with your hand to full stall, and it goes up to four amps--sixty watts--trying to pull. White and black are common selections. This is because the demands for power are becoming more than your transformer can handle. The other type of cars are the Scale cars, which are exact or near-exact replicas of actual freight cars. Lionel 1033 90 watt Transformer Postwar from 1950s-60s Whistle, Direction. Number 22 solid wire works best on most scales. The transition section (#12040) allows you to connect conventional O Gauge track to FasTrack. Subscribers, sign in to access exclusive content. Likewise, if you only want to run one train at a time, you can keep other trains on the track by wiring with blocks, and turning off trains that are not in use. Price Received. But it is important to take a close look at the cars to make sure that they are a good match for your set. Service/Tested $55.00 1 bid $14.06 shipping 1d 6h LIONEL TYPE (KW) TRAINMASTER TRANSFORMER FOR PARTS OR RESTORATION $17.05 4 bids $19.95 shipping 9h 23m Interested in southest Pennsylvania railroads; Lionel Model Railroad and Train Transformers Lionel Model Railroad and Train Transformers Best Selling Lionel 1908080 O Gauge CW80 Transformers - Black (4) $147.85 New $110.00 Used Lionel Legacy Powermaster Lnl637146 (13) $134.99 New $90.00 Used Lionel 634120 TMCC Direct Lock-On Transformer - Silver (21) $58.99 New $49.99 Used You could have a poor connection that caused the wire to heat up. Frankly, its hard to go wrong with either of these transformers, especially at todays prices. Big Ed Railroad Tycoon Today, with some luck, you can get one for closer to $100. I've got around 320 ft of track between all of the mainline, sidings, etc and I don't have any problems running my engines anywhere on the layout. Max Watts on one TIU is 720W. The KW has constant voltage outputs for accessories, the ZW don't have that feature just four handles for supplying power to four tracks or accessories if you like, both have whistle & direction feature. And if the power supply does fail, it is best not to repair it on your own. Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month, Calculating transformer size for layout size. The larger wire is usually more expensive and more challenging to work with. I have a post war ZW and a KW and a Z, all three are good transformers, just meant for differant needs. In most cases, stranded wire is preferred because the multiple threads provide more conductivity and flexibility. 5 years of Classic Toy Trains at your fingertips! The whistle requires more power than the outfits that don't have it. If your going to run anything more that what came with the set then you should probably upgrade to something a little bigger. They give a true 180 watts and have excellent electronic breakers. A bigger transformer is better and always looks nicer too! A small set that came with track, transformer, etc. These transformers are much cheaper than they were even just a few years ago, but that just makes them a bigger bargain today. How do you choose the right power supply for your model trains? Keep the power supplies in an area where they get plenty of air circulation to prevent overheating. It does run on conventional power but not great and no whistle or bell. Daniel Defense firearms, parts and accessories, http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=9670, http://www.modeltrainforum.com/album.php?u=2334, 14X16 Switching style [url]http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=8241, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkMHvbckuBLo3pJN1FGE1Gg. If you found this post informative or helpful, please share it! Accessories often interact with the train, such as a crossing gate that lowers as the train passes. Get updates and special offers via email from Trains.com brands! When you get DCS, keep the blocks and run the 2 sets off 2 Fixed channels out. To determine the maximum transformer current, divide the transformer VA by transformer secondary voltage. (10 lights X . Retrofitting a subway line into existing benchwork - and are subway sets still being made? Used a 1033 for accessories and lights. The Lionel Track & Power catalog is BACK with the latest information for more ways to make your layout even bigger, better and more powerful! I have since wired the new transformer to my layout along with the old ZW. For a classic setup of a single freight train running on a 48 sheet of plywood, a 90 watt Lionel 1033 or 1042 is an excellent choice. This is why my wife loves me so. The Lionel ZW has four sets of posts and six controls. This type of transformer is cheap, its reliable, and its easy to find. The least expensive power supply you should consider is the Lionel CW80 Transformer; you can buy a new one for about $150 or a used on one eBay for about $60. Use the CW-80 Transformer only for its intended purpose. It is not uncommon to see 50-year-old transformers still going strong on a model railroad. Outdoor railroads are, of course, an exception! At fifteen volts which is about as much as I can put to it without jumping the track, it pulls an average of 2.5 amps, or 37.5 watts--less than one tenth of the transformer capacity of 400. The wire can also be purchased as solid or stranded. Traditionally, Lionel trains run on AC but there are exceptions. OTTS Founder I use to use one KW for 70 feet of main line, sidings and switching yard entry track. Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers' Henry V. I am a person with a very active inner child. --Build a Better Toy Train Layout, by John Grams and Dick Christianson. Add a PW dual motor F3 (4 amps) with 5 lighted cars (another 10 bulbs - 1 amp) and you are cooking (9 amps). Obviously, for a lot of people, the $700 Lionel ZW-L transformer is overkill. Most command systems use a constant AC power supply, and trains are controlled by impulses sent through the rails. This thing has more power then I will ever need. As you can see, a lot of great helpers here. Like tankist stated.It's only running multiple engines that I run into issues. Also, you must have a built-in circuit breaker to prevent a short circuit from causing permanent damage to the power supply or the trains. This is where the Lionel transformer comparisons should begin. David, looking at your layout I notice there is a two rail and a three rail ? The backside of a control panel can turn into a "rat's nest" of wiring very quickly. RemembertheVeterans. Price Received. The first is the traditional or classic size, which are the cars that match starter sets. A solid and stranded wire of the same gauge will be the same total diameter. Problem with Rail King Protocol Sounds reversing unit, My D-190 Back in Action After Move to to NC, Caboose Identification - late era vintage, Continuing Saga Newtown Hardwrare House WIP. Solid wire is preferable as it is much easier to solder to the rails. Dang, this math makes my head hurt. They run on O Gauge track, but they are not exact O Scale cars. The car on the left is scale, and the one on the right is the classic, underscale size. Lionel Ready-to-Play is a large sized train that's made to be affordable and easy-to-use for both kids and adults alike. Been there, done that. While those locomotives and their sound systems are designed to operate using conventional transformers like your ZW, digital controllers are needed to activate additional features like special sound effects and coupler activation. As the kit grows and you start putting in turnouts (or the point switching systems) to move your train from one track to another track, you will not only need more than 1 transformer, you will. I really doubt you will need more than that. By creating alternate routes, more complex loops, and storage tracks, your trains will suddenly be even more interesting to watch and they will begin providing you the feeling that they are going somewhere and that you are running a small railroad. Sell Your Trains Using a Live Auction House. My question is.how big of a transformer will I need to power this thing? You can also run Lionel TMCC/Legacy Command Engines using the MTH DCS system with the addition of a Lionel command base and an additional cable. Lest I offend, in another plane of existence I was an electronics tech. As the train goes by, the door to the shed opens and a figure pops out, and once the train has passed the figure re-enters the building and the door shuts. Lionel Postwar 1033 Transformer Watch on Mint-in-box examples of vintage Lionel trains are still valuable and will continue to appreciate in value over time, because there are so few of them. Get 20 articles about compact layouts and how to build them. The iconic and legendary 270-watt Lionel ZW was the biggest and best transformer Lionel made in the postwar era. If you need a device that converts from different voltages so it can power another device, then a transformer will fulfill that role perfectly. 40-200 20 Watt DC Transformer - Small DC transformer suitable for powering a single HO diesel or steam locomotive equipped with Proto-Sound 3.0. Most two-rail track systems use direct current (DC). It has FasTrack connectors on one end and O Gauge track pins on the other. Below weve listed these transformers in numerical order in the Numerical Index. But if you already have a 1034 and dont need a whistle button, go ahead and use it. (Use buss/feeder lines to distribute power.) While most of the American Flyer products are re-issues using old Gilbert tooling from the 1950s, the O scale equipment is a combination of new designs and reissues. Our community is FREE to join. Number 24 to Number20 wire will all work with most layouts. Ive talked more about the Lionel RW and the LW as well. Enter your e-mail address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by e-mail. Make sure you are getting the right type of power supply for your layout. An Essential Guide for Toy Train Enthusiasts! Multi-conductor wires with many strands of finer wire are more common for telecommunications and electronics. Length of track or type of track doesn't (or shouldn't) matter. Classification/marker lights on the PRR steam engine, For Sale: Lionel 6-11127 Legacy Southern Pacific GS-4 Daylight, Lionel Bethlehem Steel slag car and ATLAS NYC Baggage car, Lionel O 2333790 TrainWorld & RBP Trains Chris Raines -Exclusive - Katy LEGACY ES44AC #2021, Converting MTH Rail king GS-4 PROTO 2 to ERR Cruise Commander, The Harpers Ferry Layout II - Backdrop panels completed. The only time you might not get your full moneys worth is during operation of locomotives equipped with Lionels TMCC or MTHs DCS command-control systems. The fraction of your transformer's power lost in the track will therefore be well under 10 percent, since it is proportional to the voltage drop. This signifies compatibility with 50 Hertz power. Hello All: Another simple way of doing it, Only load the transformer to 75% of it's capacity, or take your total load & multiply by 125% for proper transformer sizing. He directs production at Lionel, the premier model train manufacturer, and he istheformer president of theConrail HistoricalSociety. Lionel uses red and black (red always for the center rail, black for the two outer rails) as a standard in its instructions and most 3-Rail O Gauge layouts are probably wired this way. So, if you want to connect eight landscape lights to an electronic transformer, and the lights use 20 watts each, you would need a 160 watt transformer. Lionel made these for years and kept them in production under a different model number well into the 1970s because it was a reliable, dependable design and had enough power for a typical starter set while leaving some room to grow. Because of this, like with lighting and accessories, your power supply and wiring for switch machines do not need to be as robust. (NEW/LIKE NEW), running TMCC And DCS engines with DCS handheld, terrible crash in Greece, multiple fatalities, Its.Public Delivery Track ..NEWSpecial run corner, Improving Appearance of 0-gauge Tubular Track. Note that when working with specific products, manufacturers will often recommend a wire size and type. The two types of cars will connect together just fine, but when side-by-side in a train, they may look a bit odd. Thus an appliance with a 15-ampere plug (the usual kind with parallel blades) must draw no more than 12 amperes. It was a symbiotic relationship, the engineer designed it and the tech built it, then they both troubleshot it. Now, I diconnected that old dinosaur and connected two separate smaller ones which weren't powerful enough to run my Amtrack MTH trains. Extending the Reach of Your Power A large number of the Lionel Collectors Club UK use this set up to good effect. Classic Toy Trains magazine offers information about toy trains operating and collecting, toy train product news and reviews, toy train layout tips, toy train layout designs and track plans, and more. This is a old school approach for sizing cables & transformers or appliances in the electrical trade, & has never let us down. On the flip side, the new transformers do not seem to work as well with the prewar whistle tenders.Has anyone else noticed this anomaly? The farther from the transformer the more resistance in the rails and your engine will slow down. If the second digit is 9, it could be either, so be careful when considering one of them. Connecticut Valley Railroad -- A Branch of the New York, New Haven, And Hartford. M3103. If youre buying a transformer, youll be able to easily find one that a professional refurbished and upgraded with the links I provide below. The KW used to be really expensive, but since Lionel started making big transformers again, you can get a KW for what a 1033 used to cost, which makes it a very nice bargain today on a rugged and powerful transformer with an impressive presence. Of course, if you happen to have enough Number12 wire left over from a home renovation project to install all the buses on your small layout, it won't do any harm. In the middle range, Lionel made a lot of other transformers. Starter sets almost always include a power supply along with the track and train. The multi-conductor wire is also available. Trainz carries a variety of books that build upon the information listed above. Of course, the answer to that question depends on many things. Steve's rule of thumb for derating is very close to and in the same spirit as the NEC rule that an appliance may not draw more than 80 percent of the current rating of the outlet. If youre going to run more than one train, you can pair up two smaller transformers, or you can look at the two-handled transformers. I would check yoour connections and wire size, just to be safe. They give a great deal of power in a single handled transformer, and if you run trains along with another person, it can be more convenient for you to both have a smaller transformer than for two people to huddle around a larger KW or ZW transformer and share its handles. My current layout uses about 28 sections of track (Lionel o-27). The 110-wattLionel RW is a cheap option, and the 125-watt LW, while a bit more expensive, gives a bit more power. There was a video by Mike Reagan from Lionel about better smoke output from a chopped wave transformer, but the pure sine wave didn't cause any operational issues. With multiple switches, lights, power supplies and more all concentrated in a small space, color coding and neatness pay off. To amplify CTvalley's very valid instructions: A forum community dedicated to model train owners and enthusiasts. The smaller of the two is # 12028, which turns your oval into this: There is also the larger 12031 plan, which has a couple extra straight track pieces included, creating this: Even better, one or more of the expansion sets can be combined to create even more interesting track layouts. If you want a transformer with power to spare go get a ZW! Within that range, it is generally recommended to go for the most robust power supply possible. The 1044 is just a 1033 in a different case. --I wish I had some more cars to put behind the engine. For a classic setup of a single freight train running on a 48 (or smaller) sheet of plywood, a 90-watt Lionel 1033 or 1044 is an excellent choice. Unlimited Members, sign in to enjoy sitewide access. I know this has nothing to do with Mike's original problem but is more of a reflection on Trainman's reply. If you plan to just run MTH go with their DCS system if you plan to have a number of different engines or the MTH DCS Remote Commander which is limited to running only one engine at a time. Digital command control systems (DCC) uses digital information to control the electrical power to the train. A: According to Lionel's head of customer service, on the underside of their CW80 transformers, starting in late 2009, the vendor applied a sticker that states "QC50" on it. What about removing flanges from diesel wheels? The circuit breaker should trip with a click and the transformer should go dead. All members here are welcome to drop in and visit. Unless I'm all wet it sounded like there are somecompatibilityissues with certain locomotives versus manufacturer's transformer output wave forms. Ok our layout is 10 x 20 = 200 sq ft x 2 = 400 watts. And again regardless of scale or manufacturer, switch machines of these two types will have similar needs and performance. If you have a very long run, you may want to consider Number 12 wire. Will get a Z4000 one day [this summer probably, unless I find a good deal on an older ZW] just to say I have one. You should take care, however, to replace worn cords and wires. A bigger transformer is better and always looks nicer too! The larger transformers could operate up to four trains independently. The power supply that comes with these sets is usually a very small wall pack plug-in that cannot be easily expanded. For a classic setup of a single freight train running on a 48 (or smaller) sheet of plywood, a 90-watt Lionel 1033 or 1044 is an excellent choice. Three conductor wire is common for household use. --Toy Train Collecting and Operating, by John Grams. Make sure you are getting the right type of power supply for your layout. I got a lot of lightweight transformers that came with starter sets over the years. There is the 12030 Figure-8 set, which along with the track included in your set makes your layout into this: Figure-8s are great because they create a crossing, giving the appearance of a railroad junction, they break up the oval, and the parts to create them are relatively cheap. There isn't a one-size-fits-all solution, so you'll need to consider what you want to do and measure your options accordingly. Anyway if it takes me 100 years to finish this thing one thing is for sure I will not have to worry about powering anything and everything. Lionel trains value varies depending on design, materials, and era. I don't want to buy a lot more track, but then find out the transformer is too weak, if that make sense. If they do, follow their recommendations. If you make a complete loop of 100 feet with good track joints, you'll have something like .1 ohm from the transformer to the farthest point, using the rule of thumb that most track is something like 16 AWG wire (.004 ohms per foot) and that there are two 50 foot tracks feeding the farthest point from two directions. Lionel 1033 Transformer Renovation Part I Peter Fenzel 306 subscribers Subscribe 11K views 3 years ago Lionel 1033 Transformer gets cleaned up, a new power cord, a new whistle rectifier. Understanding the difference is important in getting the right power supply for your needs. CW80 Transformer. Classic Toy Trains 5-Year Collection 2015-2019 DVD-ROM. Again, an independent power supply and distribution bus is a good idea for your switches. Our community is FREE to join. Lionel CW80's can be found for around $50 at Greenberg and other train shows. There are a few standards when it comes to the color-coding. The article you suggest would be a daunting task, as you'd have to gather virtually every known locomotive and transformer! When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Here are some simple definitions for these electrical terms: Most power supplies will be labeled as to the scales they are meant to handle. These bus wires are often more important than the size of the power supply itself in getting good results. The preferred choice for wiring control panels is telephone or telecommunications wire. [:)]. Used 1033's for sidings and the switching yard its self. I know my train club had an issue with conventional locomotives not running properly on a layout with DCS and TMCC and apparently solved it by replacing a Lionel transformer with an MRC transformer that puts out a pure sine wave. Why Sign In? --I need a station for the train to stop at. For many first-time train buyers, once the initial excitement of setting up the train and watching it run has passed, the desire to make it do more usually begins. . The insulation on the outside of the wire also varies greatly. $2799. It would be advantageous if OGR magazine would put an article together comparing the major manufacturers transformers output waveform compatibility/ incompatibilitywith the various manufacturer's locomotives - Atlas O, Weaver, 3rd Rail, MTH , Lionel etc and conventional , DCS , TMCC, Legacy command control.